Aug 17, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04
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#1
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Guild: Romantically Lethal [RoLe]
Profession: R/Mo
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DPS Ranger
R/Mo
"Sharpshooter"
Artemis Au Apollo/Silk Weaver
Expertise: 10+2
Beast Mastery: 6+1
Marksmanship: 12+3+1
Wilderness Survival: 5+1
Marauder's Shot
Melandru's Shot {E}
Savage Shot
Beastial Fury
Read the Winds
Troll Unguent
Favorable Winds
Res Sig/Distracting Shot (AB)
I've discussed it with another longtimer here (he doesn't like it), but we went through some discussion and testing with this. I'll explain the idea with another genre. Say, in an RTS (Real time strategy), you have the infantry, the tanks who deal damage and can take it, with archers in the back, who are more frail, but can sometimes deal more damage due to damage, ease of reaching target/less moving, easier to coodinate attacks. Of course, the fact that you have range units as well as melee means those at the back can continuously attack while having just a bunch of meleers clumped together is a waste of resources, etc.
In GuildWars, Ranger rarely takes up the role of damage dealing, often it's only icing, while interrupts, barragers, traps, and sometimes rituals are what makes them valueble. With factions, this has been slightly changed, they attempted to boost beastmastery and added 2 pretty high damage bow attacks too, so this is an attempt to turn a ranger into a damage dealer.
The idea is that you can deal damage similar to that of a shock axe (I would assume this to be the pinnacle of damage dealing), with a trade off of less durability and no deepwound against interrupts, consistant damage, and ease of reaching enemies/harder for damage to be mitagated. It's much easier to assist a spike when you can reach it instantly too. Below is a bit of testing I did with a typical shock axe. Just understand, in no way is this meant to replace a warrior or any nonsense like this, but to provide an additional source of damage and add variety to the team, making more difficult to counter. Interrupts are always good too. This build would be meant for a TA (ie. 1 war, 1 monk, 1 utility, emo/mez/cripshot, 1 sharpshooter), and perhaps GvG (2 wars, 2 monks, 1 cripshot, 1 sharpshooter, 1 emo, 1 mez).
Without pre-casting vs 60 armor: Shock Axe beats Sharpshooter by 1/2 second (savaged the last shot). I casted Read the Wind in the beggining for this one.
Precasted Favorable Winds, VS 60 armor: Shock Axe has to attack twice more after the ranger's dummy goes down.
Everyone knows warriors are the main damage dealers, but the damage from the ranger is really quite good too. Note that read the wind and spirit can be pre-casted before engagement (although, yes, they will go down), and also that this test is done with the warrior having frenzy on, which means the practical damage will be lessesened.
The ranger has built in IAS as well as very good energy management (expertise and melandru's shot, giving +15 energy with 7 recharge).
I did another race thing, using the AoE grid with 2 adjacent, nearby, and in-the-area targets. We each targeted one of each, and started together. The test we did has no pre-casting (I do not find that fair... since when is precasting illegal, hmmph), so I started off with using Read the Wind and didn't bothere with FW since it's so damned long, and he started slashing those guys. I lost by about 3 seconds.
At the later part of the test, I was unable to spam Tiger's Fury because I ran out of energy. Again, this "simulation" is a bit impractical because in a real game, there are almost definetly enchantments on the enemy team. 1 shot of melandru's would give me 15 energy, enough to use tiger's fury 3 times, meaning that I think, in a practical situation (dummies have no enchants), I would be able to outdamage those 3 seconds the shock axe has over me. Not to mention that I would be able to precast. In a real situation, there are blinds and hexes to deal with, but I think that these damage hates actually give me the upper edge when compared to damage output of a warrior (I can use Read the Wind while I am blinded before the monk mends me, I can take out running characters more easily, interrupts own, etc etc etc)
For the record, the damage is 118 critical against 60 armors using attack skills. The attack skills are used approximately once per 7 seconds. Those who doubt the damage capability, take this and compare to Evis and Exec. How much damage do you get out of the crits? And how often do you get to use them? ASSUMING continuous frenzy, 7 seconds as well, except you cannot have frenzy on when underattack and you don't gain adrenaline if blinded, fled from and crippled, etc, whereas the skills on the sharpshooter recharges even when you don't attack, is kiting, etc.
More output (numerically and practically), but less durable; so that's my little experimental build, hopefully you guys won't hate it as much as my friend does. Tell me what you think.
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Aug 17, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04
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#2
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: I is not canadien
Guild: Guillotine Tactics [GanK]
Profession: R/
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Sustained dps is the most fun to play i find, a lot better then burst dps (spike) or degen..
If i were you i'd squeeze in WD to make the build a lot more rounded and give you better survivability. After all, when you're dead you do 0 dps.
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Aug 17, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40
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#3
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Germany
Guild: Force of Arms [FoA]
Profession: Mo/
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I agree, adding 1 survival skill would be useful. I've been testing this out in alliance battles and it is a lot of fun to play. It is also very effective except when you get a warrior or two attacking you.
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Aug 17, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58
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#4
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ganking, USA
Guild: Retired
Profession: R/
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I don't see the need for Beast Flurry in there
Switch that to WD and drop the Beast atts and add them to Wilderness survival
Now when that warrior gets in your face you have a Deffense, plus you can put troll up w/o being interupted and It will heal you more.
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Aug 17, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28
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#5
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Germany
Guild: Force of Arms [FoA]
Profession: Mo/
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Thats a good idea. Also, by dropping beastial fury, some of the energy management problems with this build. I find that if I have BF on, I run out of energy very quickly, unless I am lucky and find a character that has enchantments on him.
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Aug 17, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11
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#6
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Perfectly Elocuted
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^ I run a similar concept in PvE pretty often... Well the core damage skills anyway.
I use:
Pentrating Shot
Marauder's Shot
Punishing Shot {E}
Savage Shot
That's four ten energy attacks, and it gets really energy thirsty in long engagements, so I actually go against the advice I usually give and run a Major Expertise run, and bump my Expert up to 14, which helps considerably.
I like to run Tiger's Fury fairly often as well, but I can't spam attacks as much when I do that, so it's a bit of a trade off. I never considered trying to run Melandru's Shot/Tiger's Fury in an enchant rich area....
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Aug 17, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33
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#7
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
I've discussed it with another longtimer here (he doesn't like it), but we went through some discussion and testing with this.
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A link to this discussion would be nice and perhaps a little less biased since we would be able to see what this person's couter arguments are
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
I'll explain the idea with another genre. Say, in an RTS (Real time strategy), you have the infantry, the tanks who deal damage and can take it, with archers in the back, who are more frail, but can sometimes deal more damage due to damage, ease of reaching target/less moving, easier to coodinate attacks. Of course, the fact that you have range units as well as melee means those at the back can continuously attack while having just a bunch of meleers clumped together is a waste of resources, etc.
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I think you just described the Elementalist class perfectly. While I personally think that a ranger truly excells in versatility and not so much as DPS (except for a Barrage build in the right circumstances) I generally wouldn't see them as a replacement for this class unless you are in an area with a lot of enchantment stripping and/or interupts. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Eles are the end all damage dealers, I simply believe that for the ideal situation you describe, an Ele would excel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
The idea is that you can deal damage similar to that of a shock axe (I would assume this to be the pinnacle of damage dealing)...
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I'm actually kinda curious as to what exactly this build consists of. I assume it's a lot like the premade PvP build called Frenzy Theory, a confirmation of this or explanation of what the exact build is would be nice, otherwise we are simply assuming that this build is the strongest variant of the "Shock Axe" build in terms of DPS.
Also if this is to be a comparison to that build, I would ask if the ranger build you are presenting is intended to be a PvP or PvE build since the "melee in the front, ranged in the back" theory does not always play out as well in PvP as it does in PvE.
Finally from what I hear from others, this seems to be pretty energy heavy. If any build becomes to energy heavy, the DPS means next to nothing when you run out of energy and are able to do almost nothing beyond your normal bow attack. Taking Tiger's Fury out of the equation seems the most logical way to solve this problem though.
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Aug 17, 2006, 08:35 PM // 20:35
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#8
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Frost Gate Guardian
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I have been testing a build much like this one for a few days now. My skill bar is as follows:
Melandru's Shot
Marauder's Shot
Power Shot/Precision Shot
Frenzy
Read the Wind
Favorable Winds
Whirling Defense
Rez Sig
12+3+1 Marksmanship
12+1 Expertise
I tried using Beastial Fury for IAS, but I found that I could not maintain it as often as I needed, and it siphoned valuable points from Expertise and Marksmanship. Melandru's Shot and Marauder's Shot both add 37 damage at 16 Marksmanship, and I believe Power Shot/Precision Shot are at 26 or 27. This rivals the cookie cutter axe warrior because you dont need to wait to gain adrenaline, as a ranger one may be able to maintain frenzy more often than a warrior could, and with high expertise and the energy gain from Melandru's Shot, you can maintain very high DPS, rather than spiking.
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Aug 18, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13
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#9
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyDean
I have been testing a build much like this one for a few days now. My skill bar is as follows:
Melandru's Shot
Marauder's Shot
Power Shot/Precision Shot
Frenzy
Read the Wind
Favorable Winds
Whirling Defense
Rez Sig
12+3+1 Marksmanship
12+1 Expertise
I tried using Beastial Fury for IAS, but I found that I could not maintain it as often as I needed, and it siphoned valuable points from Expertise and Marksmanship. Melandru's Shot and Marauder's Shot both add 37 damage at 16 Marksmanship, and I believe Power Shot/Precision Shot are at 26 or 27. This rivals the cookie cutter axe warrior because you dont need to wait to gain adrenaline, as a ranger one may be able to maintain frenzy more often than a warrior could, and with high expertise and the energy gain from Melandru's Shot, you can maintain very high DPS, rather than spiking.
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Looks good, but the weakest point in this build is that the stance you have to cancel frenzy is Whirling, which has a 60 second recharge. Warriors tend to use Sprint to cancel this so relying on Whirling as your cancel leaves you a bit vulnerable to get caught getting hacked on with Frenzy up. Outside of this however, the build does look like it could pack a punch.
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Aug 18, 2006, 01:53 PM // 13:53
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#10
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: I is not canadien
Guild: Guillotine Tactics [GanK]
Profession: R/
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I don't know about you guys but i find myself running 16 Expertise A LOT if i'm going for direct damage..
16exp
14-15marks
the rest wherever..
Power/Punish/Pen/Savage/RtW/WD/ZH/Rez or FW...
I find i don't carry troll anymore these days and my whole outlook on playing my ranger has changed. I get more thrills out of loading up on damage and taking little to no defensive skills. I also find i can't even play with out Zojun's Haste on my bar these days.
Suicide/kamikaze rangers are the new cool, you just watch.
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Aug 18, 2006, 02:04 PM // 14:04
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#11
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Guild: Romantically Lethal [RoLe]
Profession: R/Mo
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The build is geared mainly with TA or GvG in mind where you know you will get healed, so often WD is not needed, though I've gotta try that in AB.
Anyway, as I tried to explain with the RTS analogy, I'm going for a build that is not meant to hit, a guy who does damage from the back, and that's the mentality, although having more defense is probably a good idea as well for AB.
As for IAS, it does add alot of damage. I don't know about the energy problem, but I haven't faced any, seeing as my attacks cost 5 energy, and I can gain 15 back every 7 seconds. Granted, it could miss or not work now and then, but most of the times there are no problems. With so many prot boons and smiters around, enchants are easy as hell to find too, so I haven't had much problem with that.
About the comparison, I'll quote here: "... and perhaps GvG (2 wars, 2 monks, 1 cripshot, 1 sharpshooter, 1 emo, 1 mez)." The shock war would be: Evis. Exec. Pene. Shock Frenzy Sprint Healsig Ressig. Pretty standard GvG build. For PvE, it's pretty good too, but Barrage is probably better in PvE.
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Aug 18, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13
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#12
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2005
Profession: R/
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problem with this build?
No spiking ability... well, not much.
this is why people still run warriors over DPS rangers.
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Aug 18, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40
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#13
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Guild: Idiot Savants [iQ]
Profession: R/
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>.<
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
The idea is that you can deal damage similar to that of a shock axe (I would assume this to be the pinnacle of damage dealing), with a trade off of less durability and no deepwound against interrupts, consistant damage, and ease of reaching enemies/harder for damage to be mitagated.
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It's not easier to reach enemies, and it's definately easier to mitigate Ranger damage than it is that of a Warrior's, particularly a Shock Axe. Ever hear of being obstructed? Yea, that doesn't happen to an attacking Warrior, who I might add becomes more effective as the battle draws out due to Adrenaline build up, as opposed to any energy consuming character. And the loss of Deep Wound is HUGE. That's an extremely important part of spikes; you're build cannot kill a Monk (or anything with any healing on it) real by itself, while a Shock Axe can eliminate a target in one swift Adrenal spike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silk Weaver
This build would be meant for a TA (ie. 1 war, 1 monk, 1 utility, emo/mez/cripshot, 1 sharpshooter), and perhaps GvG (2 wars, 2 monks, 1 cripshot, 1 sharpshooter, 1 emo, 1 mez).
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As for the TA half of that, if this build is doing Warrior style damage, why do you have a Warrior and a Sharpshooter in the build?
And as for the GvG portion, thanks but I'll take an Assassin's ganking ability over that of an obstructed Warriors anyday, along with a long list of other, more reliable damage dealers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntmaster
Power/Punish/Pen/Savage/RtW/WD/ZH/Rez or FW...
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Did you seriously just say Power Shot? That's like bringing Power Attack on a Warrior dude...
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Aug 18, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44
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#14
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Perfectly Elocuted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reikai
problem with this build?
No spiking ability... well, not much.
this is why people still run warriors over DPS rangers.
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I think the issue is bigger than just the actual spike, because you can gear a Ranger to spike.... I think what hamstrings everything but a warrior as a primary damage dealer is the fact that only the warrior has an unconditional Deep Wound. Were the Ranger ever to have a skill that dealt deep wound, then the meta game might change... then again, it might not.
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Aug 18, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17
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#15
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Guild: Idiot Savants [iQ]
Profession: R/
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Actually what hamstrings this is that your Ranger is spending quite a bit of energy to do what a Warrior does by auto-attacking.
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Aug 18, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42
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#16
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: I is not canadien
Guild: Guillotine Tactics [GanK]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
Did you seriously just say Power Shot? That's like bringing Power Attack on a Warrior dude...
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Meh, i dunno, thats what i used to run in pve, havn't actually 'played' factions pve besides blasting through the story, worked fine back in the day, all the alternatives are not needed, i just liked popping off those 4 attacks over and over for some straight up dps.
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Aug 18, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43
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#17
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Pre-Searing Cadet
Join Date: Aug 2006
Guild: Mercenary Killers [MK]
Profession: R/E
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originally posted by SnipiousMax
I think the issue is bigger than just the actual spike, because you can gear a Ranger to spike.... I think what hamstrings everything but a warrior as a primary damage dealer is the fact that only the warrior has an unconditional Deep Wound. Were the Ranger ever to have a skill that dealt deep wound, then the meta game might change... then again, it might not.
this is taken care of by your pet and you dont have to have any points in BM to use the skill maybe to us it effectively you should have a couple points there but i know that i have a long list of BM spells and shouts that do great side affects like deep wound and bleeding
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Aug 18, 2006, 03:56 PM // 15:56
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#18
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Perfectly Elocuted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDHWolfHunters
this is taken care of by your pet and you dont have to have any points in BM to use the skill maybe to us it effectively you should have a couple points there but i know that i have a long list of BM spells and shouts that do great side affects like deep wound and bleeding
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Daze, interrupted, knocked down, poison, bleeding, cripple.... Nope, there's not a deep wound pet skill.
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Aug 19, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14
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#19
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Guild: Romantically Lethal [RoLe]
Profession: R/Mo
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Obstruction is nasty, but that depends, I can still see an advantage of having range/height, although it seems I'm the only one with Isle of the Dead.
Warrior does the chasing, ranger helps bringing health down, and then assists spike with Melandru's + Savage while warrior goes Evis/Exec causing the deepwound. That would be a pretty normal scenario, I think. As for energy, Melandru's solves most problems from experience. Yeah, having another warrior is probably safer, but I can see this being more effective when used correctly and in the right situation. I guess I'm just seeing if the idea is plausible. Eh, I've done some testing in TA/RA, and it seems okay to me.
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Aug 21, 2006, 05:03 AM // 05:03
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#20
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SPAWN CAMPING YOUR HOUSE
Guild: We Speed Clear H O H [ HsC]
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